<div dir="auto"><div><p dir="ltr">The hop count is not arbitrary. Each time the frame is repeated, the decrement of the hop count is necessary to control the life span of the frame. In a flood network such as the cluster, I repeat everything I receive (unless the deduping algorithm kills it). Without the decremented hop count, it is possible for the frame to keep looping around the network with nothing to kill it. The frame would just keep being broadcast amongst nodes causing excessive build up of traffic. When the hop count reaches zero, the frame dies and is not rebroadcast. It is essentially a count down timer based on the number of retransmissions.</p><p dir="ltr">I have taken notice, in a few minutes of research last night, the CC, AR, and older Spider clusters seem to start at H99. Newer releases of DXSpider start at H30 as someone else mentioned. </p><p dir="ltr">I will show the data if needed.</p><p dir="ltr">Chris, WI3W</p><p dir="ltr"><br></p><br><div class="gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, Mar 12, 2025, 15:12 Rudy Bakalov via Dxspider-support <<a href="mailto:dxspider-support@tobit.co.uk">dxspider-support@tobit.co.uk</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><div style="font-family:Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><div></div>
<div dir="ltr">This is helpful. I still don't understand why H is reported if it is arbitrary. What does it affect? What is it used for? What breaks if it is missing?</div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">So let's assume that extra data is not a problem as your list of nodes for each hope will be just 5. Can you explain the actual algorithm that you will apply to determine if the spot is good or bad? I don't understand how that data will be used in practice. Just use a plain English or Italian pseudo code to explain your idea:</div><div dir="ltr"><ol><li>For each spot, I will create a list of all nodes that have routed the spot.</li><li>Then I will examine each node and do this and that</li><li>If this happens, I will do A, if that happens I will do B.</li><li>Spots will be dropped based on such and such criteria.</li><li>I am making such and such assumptions</li></ol></div><div dir="ltr">Rudy N2WQ</div><div><br></div>
<div id="m_6416385818154106012ydpec7c9534yahoo_quoted_2605317663">
<div style="font-family:'Helvetica Neue',Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<div>
On Wednesday, March 12, 2025 at 02:55:58 PM EDT, IZ2LSC <<a href="mailto:iz2lsc.andrea@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">iz2lsc.andrea@gmail.com</a>> wrote:
</div>
<div><br></div>
<div><br></div>
<div><div id="m_6416385818154106012ydpec7c9534yiv8836242332"><div><div dir="ltr"><div>For PC61 originated by dxspider the default hop count is 30.</div><div>I cannot comment for spots originated by others.</div><div>I can see on my node PC61 originated by VE7CC coming in with H95</div><div><br clear="none"></div><div>Anyway, <span>Kin EA3CV did an excellent paper analyzing the network and he found that each node can reach any other node in 2-5 hops on most of the cases.</span></div><div><span>So I do not expect to see long path recorded as you depicted (as far as there are no loops, but this is a good way to discover loops indeed).</span></div><div><span><br clear="none"></span></div><div><span>73s</span></div><div><span><br clear="none"></span></div><div><span>Andrea</span></div><div><span><br clear="none"></span></div><div><span><br clear="none"></span></div><div><div dir="ltr">--></div></div><br clear="none"></div><br clear="none"><div id="m_6416385818154106012ydpec7c9534yiv8836242332yqt61322"><div><div dir="ltr">On Wed, Mar 12, 2025 at 6:44 PM Rudy Bakalov <<a shape="rect" href="mailto:r_bakalov@yahoo.com" rel="nofollow noreferrer" target="_blank">r_bakalov@yahoo.com</a>> wrote:<br clear="none"></div><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div style="font-family:Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><div></div>
<div dir="ltr">350 bytes per hop per message, not 350 bytes per message. It's give or take another 25 MB for 80,000 messages.</div><div dir="ltr"><br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr">If H is not what PC61 says it is, what is it? If it is decremented, what is the starting value to get to 98? And what is the purpose of H if unreliable, why send it at all?</div><div dir="ltr"><br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr">Rudy N2WQ</div><div><br clear="none"></div>
<div id="m_6416385818154106012ydpec7c9534yiv8836242332m_1573346562652736335m_-3675340174024689359ydpb0bfdd7yahoo_quoted_2141269297">
<div style="font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<div>
On Wednesday, March 12, 2025 at 01:34:47 PM EDT, Kin <<a shape="rect" href="mailto:ea3cv@cronux.net" rel="nofollow noreferrer" target="_blank">ea3cv@cronux.net</a>> wrote:
</div>
<div><br clear="none"></div>
<div><br clear="none"></div>
<div><div id="m_6416385818154106012ydpec7c9534yiv8836242332m_1573346562652736335m_-3675340174024689359ydpb0bfdd7yiv1464727488"><div><div><p><span><span style="font-family:sans-serif">Average</span></span><span style="font-family:sans-serif"> spot <span>value</span> (60/130) 95 bytes. <span>But</span> I <span>will</span> use <span>the</span> <span>worst</span> case, 150 bytes.</span></p><p><span style="font-family:sans-serif"> </span></p><p><span><span style="font-family:sans-serif">Received</span></span><span style="font-family:sans-serif"> <span>frame</span> <span>size</span>:</span></p><p><span style="font-family:sans-serif">14(Ethernet <span><span>header</span></span><span>)+</span>20(IP <span>header</span>)+20(TCP <span>header</span>)+150(<span>Payload</span>)+4(CRC) = 208 bytes.</span></p><p><span style="font-family:sans-serif"> </span></p><p><span style="font-family:sans-serif">80000 <span>messages</span>/min. <span>approx</span>. 1334 <span>messages</span>/s</span></p><p><span style="font-family:sans-serif">1334 <span>messages</span>/s * 208 bytes * 8 bits = 2219776 bytes/s</span></p><p><span style="font-family:sans-serif"> </span></p><p><span><span style="font-family:sans-serif">Necessary</span></span><span style="font-family:sans-serif"> line <span>speed</span> = 2.22 Mbps</span></p><p><span style="font-family:sans-serif"> </span></p><p><span><span style="font-family:sans-serif">With</span></span><span style="font-family:sans-serif"> <span>the</span> <span>assumed</span> <span>increase</span> <span>of</span> 350 bytes per <span>message</span>:</span></p><p><span style="font-family:sans-serif"> </span></p><p><span style="font-family:sans-serif">14(Ethernet <span><span>header</span></span><span>)+</span>20(IP <span>header</span>)+20(TCP <span>header</span>)+500(<span>Payload</span>)+4(CRC) = 558 bytes.</span></p><p><span style="font-family:sans-serif"> </span></p><p><span style="font-family:sans-serif">80000 <span>messages</span>/min <span>approx</span>. 1334 <span>messages</span>/s</span></p><p><span style="font-family:sans-serif">1334 <span>messages</span>/s * 558 bytes * 8 bits = 5954976 bytes/s</span></p><p><span style="font-family:sans-serif"> </span></p><p><span><span style="font-family:sans-serif">Necessary</span></span><span style="font-family:sans-serif"> line <span>speed</span> = 5.96 Mbps</span></p><p><span style="font-family:sans-serif"> </span></p><p><span><span style="font-family:sans-serif">But</span></span><span style="font-family:sans-serif"> <span>if</span> <span>instead</span> <span>of</span> <span>having</span> 35 <span>neighbouring</span> <span>nodes</span>, <span>we</span> <span>had</span> 10:</span></p><p><span style="font-family:sans-serif"> </span></p><p><span style="font-family:sans-serif">(5954976 bytes/s * 10) / <span>35 <span> </span>=</span> 1.70 Mbps <span> </span></span></p><p><span style="font-family:sans-serif"> </span></p><p><span><span style="font-family:sans-serif">Conclusion</span></span><span style="font-family:sans-serif">, <span>pecata</span> minuta <span>for</span> <span>the</span> <span>connection</span> <span>to</span> <span>the</span> <span>provider</span> and a <span>waste</span> <span>of</span> CPU/<span>Memory</span> <span>with</span> so <span>many</span> links.</span></p><p><span style="font-family:sans-serif"> </span></p><p><span style="font-family:sans-serif">Ah, <span>we</span> <span>take</span> <span>the</span> <span>value</span> <span>of</span> <span>about</span> 5 <span>hops</span> as <span>valid</span> <span>when</span> <span>we</span> are <span>interested</span>, <span>now</span> <span>we</span> <span>should</span> <span>not</span> use 50.</span></p><p><span style="font-family:sans-serif"> </span></p><p><span style="font-family:sans-serif">Kin EA3CV</span></p><p><span style="font-family:sans-serif"> </span></p><p><span style="font-family:sans-serif">PS</span></p><p><span style="font-family:sans-serif"> </span></p><p><span style="font-family:sans-serif">20 CCC + 15 DXS</span></p><p><span style="font-family:sans-serif"> </span></p><p><span style="font-family:sans-serif"> </span></p><div><div style="border-width:1pt medium medium;border-style:solid none none;border-color:rgb(225,225,225) currentcolor currentcolor;padding:3pt 0cm 0cm"><div id="m_6416385818154106012ydpec7c9534yiv8836242332m_1573346562652736335m_-3675340174024689359ydpb0bfdd7yiv1464727488yqtfd97079"><p><b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:sans-serif">De:</span></b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:sans-serif"> Dxspider-support <<a shape="rect" href="mailto:dxspider-support-bounces@tobit.co.uk" rel="nofollow noreferrer" target="_blank">dxspider-support-bounces@tobit.co.uk</a>> <b>En nombre de </b>Rudy Bakalov via Dxspider-support<br clear="none"><b>Enviado el:</b> miércoles, 12 de marzo de 2025 16:57<br clear="none"><b>Para:</b> <a shape="rect" href="mailto:iz2lsc.andrea@gmail.com" rel="nofollow noreferrer" target="_blank">iz2lsc.andrea@gmail.com</a>; The DXSpider Support list <<a shape="rect" href="mailto:dxspider-support@dxcluster.org" rel="nofollow noreferrer" target="_blank">dxspider-support@dxcluster.org</a>><br clear="none"><b>CC:</b> Rudy Bakalov <<a shape="rect" href="mailto:r_bakalov@yahoo.com" rel="nofollow noreferrer" target="_blank">r_bakalov@yahoo.com</a>><br clear="none"><b>Asunto:</b> Re: [Dxspider-support] Forgeries</span></p></div></div></div><div id="m_6416385818154106012ydpec7c9534yiv8836242332m_1573346562652736335m_-3675340174024689359ydpb0bfdd7yiv1464727488yqtfd99681"><p> </p><div><p><span style="font-family:sans-serif"></span><span>Let’s think this thru:</span></p><div><p><span> </span></p></div><div><p><span>1/Logs show spots with H as high as 98! Recording the node of each hop will increase PC61 payload on average 6 characters per hop. Let’s say average H is 50, that would be 300 characters plus the delimiters or about 350 characters.</span></p></div><div><p><span>2/My cluster received over 80K spots per minute. Imagine the traffic created by 80K messages with additional 350 characters per PC61 message.</span></p></div><div><p><span> </span></p></div><div><p><span>Can you describe the full algorithm you are proposing? How are you going to use the additional data to make a decision to accept or drop a spot?</span></p></div><div><p><span> </span></p></div><div><p><span>When comparing PC61 to BGP remember that BGP is designed to support two-way data flows. PC61 is strictly one-way and doesn’t need routing overhead.</span></p></div><div><p><span> </span></p></div><div><p><span>Rudy N2WQ</span></p></div><div><p><span> </span></p><div><div><p><span>Sent using a tiny keyboard. Please excuse brevity, typos, or inappropriate autocorrect.</span></p></div><div><p><span> </span></p></div></div><div><p><span><br clear="none"><br clear="none"></span></p><blockquote style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt"><p style="margin-bottom:12pt"><span>On Mar 12, 2025, at 11:19</span><span style="font-family:sans-serif"> </span><span>AM, IZ2LSC via Dxspider-support <<a shape="rect" href="mailto:dxspider-support@tobit.co.uk" rel="nofollow noreferrer" target="_blank">dxspider-support@tobit.co.uk</a>> wrote:</span></p></blockquote></div><blockquote style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt"><div><p><span style="font-family:sans-serif"></span><span></span></p><div><div><p><span>Mike, this is why I'm saying that we need to record the whole path, not only the last hop.</span></p></div><div><p><span>Every node has to append it's ID.</span></p></div><div><p><span>Andrea</span></p></div><div><p><span> </span></p></div><div><div><p><span>--></span></p></div></div><p><span> </span></p></div><p><span> </span></p><div><div><p><span>On Wed, Mar 12, 2025 at 2:05</span><span style="font-family:sans-serif"> </span><span>PM Mike McCarthy, W1NR via Dxspider-support <<a shape="rect" href="mailto:dxspider-support@tobit.co.uk" rel="nofollow noreferrer" target="_blank">dxspider-support@tobit.co.uk</a>> wrote:</span></p></div><blockquote style="border-width:medium medium medium 1pt;border-style:none none none solid;border-color:currentcolor currentcolor currentcolor rgb(204,204,204);padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm"><p><span>The current release does tag spots from the incoming node partner with a <br clear="none">"via" tag. You would need to analyze all the logs in between, using the <br clear="none">"via" tag to trace it back to the source.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">On 3/12/2025 8:06 AM, IZ2LSC via Dxspider-support wrote:<br clear="none">> We are all senior developer with AI!<br clear="none">> At least you agreed that what you proposed for partner identity is not a <br clear="none">> solution against the flooding.<br clear="none">> Perhaps do you also agree about the need to record the spot path?<br clear="none">> <br clear="none">> 73<br clear="none">> <br clear="none">> Andrea<br clear="none"><br clear="none">-- <br clear="none">73 de Mike, W1NR<br clear="none"><br clear="none">THAT was the equation. EXISTENCE!... SURVIVAL... must cancel out... <br clear="none">programming!<br clear="none"><br clear="none">- Ruk -<br clear="none"><br clear="none"><br clear="none">_______________________________________________<br clear="none">Dxspider-support mailing list<br clear="none"><a shape="rect" href="mailto:Dxspider-support@tobit.co.uk" rel="nofollow noreferrer" target="_blank">Dxspider-support@tobit.co.uk</a><br clear="none"><a shape="rect" href="https://mailman.tobit.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/dxspider-support" rel="nofollow noreferrer" target="_blank">https://mailman.tobit.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/dxspider-support</a></span></p></blockquote></div><p><span>_______________________________________________<br clear="none">Dxspider-support mailing list<br clear="none"><a shape="rect" href="mailto:Dxspider-support@tobit.co.uk" rel="nofollow noreferrer" target="_blank">Dxspider-support@tobit.co.uk</a><br clear="none"><a shape="rect" href="https://mailman.tobit.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/dxspider-support" rel="nofollow noreferrer" target="_blank">https://mailman.tobit.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/dxspider-support</a></span></p></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
</div>
</div></div></div></blockquote></div></div>
</div></div></div>
</div>
</div></div></div>_______________________________________________<br>
Dxspider-support mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Dxspider-support@tobit.co.uk" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">Dxspider-support@tobit.co.uk</a><br>
<a href="https://mailman.tobit.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/dxspider-support" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://mailman.tobit.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/dxspider-support</a><br>
</blockquote></div></div></div>