<div dir="ltr"><div>Andrea, and everyone else,</div><div><br></div><div>We should be empowering the users, not quietly restricting them. If you're throttling (or planning on throttling) users you must tell them, and tell them why. They should be aware that there is a chance they'll be getting a reduced service from your cluster, and if they understand the limitations and why they will be in a position to understand and act.</div><div><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><font size="2" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif"><br></font></div><div><font size="2" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif">---<br></font></div><div><font size="2" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif">Ciemon Dunville <a href="https://www.qrz.com/db/G0TRT" target="_blank">- GØTRT</a></font></div><div><font size="2" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif">Warminster, Wiltshire. UK</font></div><div><font size="2" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif"><br></font></div><div>
<p><span style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:11pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></span></p>
</div></div></div></div><br></div><br><div class="gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, 18 Mar 2025 at 14:14, IZ2LSC via Dxspider-support <<a href="mailto:dxspider-support@tobit.co.uk">dxspider-support@tobit.co.uk</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div>Dear Dirk, </div><div>I was quite sure about that!!!</div><div>Thanks!!!!</div><div><br></div><div>@Ciemon, yes I agree that the documentation is not the best, but the beauty of DXspider is that we have the source code available. This is why I prefer Dirk work to others.<br></div><div>So you are free to study, test, reverse engineer, improve, fork.</div><div><br></div><div>Regarding the filter, flooding limit, etc., well, I think that each sysop has a certain level of freedom on how to serve his users.</div><div>Just think of the setting to filter badwords, baddx, badspotter and so on.</div><div>Any sysop can implement different lists.</div><div>I think that when you enter a shop you are not questioning why they sell X and not Y.</div><div>If you don't like what they sell, go to the next door.</div><div><br></div><div>73s</div><div>Andrea iz2lsc</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature">--></div></div><br></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Mar 18, 2025 at 2:26 PM Dirk Koopman via Dxspider-support <<a href="mailto:dxspider-support@tobit.co.uk" target="_blank">dxspider-support@tobit.co.uk</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><u></u>
<div>
<div>There will be a version of this in the
next release.<br>
<br>
Dirk<br>
<br>
On 18/03/2025 12:51, IZ2LSC via Dxspider-support wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>I Ciemon, </div>
<div>it was just a different approach, not yet implemented
because I'm sure Dirk could do something better.</div>
<div>I'm just doing some experiments on a lab node.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>73s</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Andrea</div>
<div>
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature">--></div>
</div>
<br>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Mar 18, 2025 at
11:48 AM Ciemon Dunville via Dxspider-support <<a href="mailto:dxspider-support@tobit.co.uk" target="_blank">dxspider-support@tobit.co.uk</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>Andrea,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I'm curious as to whether or not your rate limiting
applies to your (you only) 'OTA cluster? Or are you not
forwarding spots into those systems?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Having just had a look, I can't see any mention of you
rate limiting spots on your cluster, it would be useful to
understand your thinking/levels etc<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>73, Ciemon</div>
<div>
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr">
<div><font size="2" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font size="2" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif">---<br>
</font></div>
<div><font size="2" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif">Ciemon
Dunville <a href="https://www.qrz.com/db/G0TRT" target="_blank">- GØTRT</a></font></div>
<div><font size="2" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif">Warminster,
Wiltshire. UK</font></div>
<div><font size="2" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif">Sysop <a class="gmail_plusreply" id="m_-3943033595541405559m_-6763769641186160254m_8772513149316000074plusReplyChip-0">@G0TRT-9</a></font><font size="2" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif"><br>
</font></div>
<div>
<p><span style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:11pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br>
</span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, 18 Mar 2025 at
08:46, IZ2LSC via Dxspider-support <<a href="mailto:dxspider-support@tobit.co.uk" target="_blank">dxspider-support@tobit.co.uk</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>Because I don't tolerate serial spotters (human or
robot, SSB or DATA or CW), my approach is different
and radical.</div>
<div>If a spotter exceeds a threshold of spots/m it is
blacklisted for a certain time.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>73s</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Andrea, iz2lsc</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature">--></div>
</div>
<br>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Mar 18, 2025
at 3:28 AM Christopher Schlegel via Dxspider-support
<<a href="mailto:dxspider-support@tobit.co.uk" target="_blank">dxspider-support@tobit.co.uk</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="auto">Agreed on the update point...
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">And I see your point on the
likeness of the auto generation, but I'm going
to play devil's advocate here. In the last week
the K index has been horrible for barefoot and a
wire operators leading to an increase in digital
mode activity. I am one of these operators. Now,
I don't care for auto generated spots and have
it disabled as I feel that I can filter the
spots better than just automagically letting it
happen (my opinion). I am capable and educated
(through effort) enough to do that. I understand
the argument for general users and their
capabilities, ignorance is not an excuse at some
point. Perhaps an education campaign by sysops
could help the situation, but that's a losing
battle as well. Proven by Kin's efforts. Gives
me the idea to put a link to the wiki in the
MOTD.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Most software that I have been
exposed to will automatically spot (if set) when
a contact has been logged. No different than an
overzealous spotter at say a few spots a minute.
The gotcha here is that the information is valid
(as much as any manually entered spot) and
authentic to the contact. Even during contests,
if all QSOs were automatically spotted of even
the best CW 2BSIQ operators you're looking at
maybe 9 spots per minute by various call signs.
500 QSOs/hr / 60min = 8.33 spots/min
(exaggerated for headroom)</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">I think there is merit in the idea
of rate limiting, at least in mitigating the
effect of flooding. Websites and other software
(thinking PSKReporter, rate limiting login
attempts, etc.) do this all the time. The
deduping algorithms employed in the cluster
(haven't forgotten the bypass) do to some extent
but not in the manner needed.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Authenticity of spots is a
separate issue to me. As you mentioned
previously, the cluster is far too disparate and
open to truly fix that issue while being
inclusive to older technologies and formats.
Again, we mirror the greater Internet at this
point and trying to get everyone on board is
like pulling teeth. Do we use the greater share
that Spider nodes have to force a movement? Is
it worth an essentially civil war at this point
alienating older nodes? I don't think this is in
the spirit of Amateur Radio nor is keeping
everything a secret by way of going closed
source. I applaud Dirk's efforts here
in adhering to the spirit. If someone used my
radio gear to broadcast a commercial
transmission, would I not have the
responsibility to prevent that and suffer the
consequences that follow? </div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Sysops need to wake up and pay
attention. These attacks are coming from
somewhere, there has to be a way to find the
holes and do what we can to patch them. My
personal opinion is that I provide a service and
compromising that to solve a problem is the easy
way out. I would respectfully request that these
changes remain optional so that I can provide
the service to users the way I believe it should
be. Some other sysops have already filtered out
FTx spots on their nodes and advertise them that
way. I do not filter announcements so any user
that would prefer that, is able to see them and
make that choice for themselves.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div>It has been danced around on this list and
I'm just going to go and outright say
it...sysops that are absent or apathetic perhaps
need to be disconnected as a warning or make
their nodes inaccessible to the public. A
culling of sorts to prune the dead weight and
reduce the vulnerable attack surface. This I
feel is the real vulnerability of the system
that gets exploited. Checking in once in a while
or paying attention to communication from a
group that a sysop directly affects is the first
and foremost thing we can do to cooperate on
keeping things healthy. I for one will keep
paying attention in hopes of finding that slip
that lets us figure out the hole and I will
continue to work with other sysops here in that
effort.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>As always, I am not a developer, but I will
respect the decisions of the group and the
developer who has so graciously spent his time
providing the software needed to provide this
service to the hobby.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>73, Chris WI3W</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Sorry for the rant like prose, but a call to
arms is needed...</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote" dir="auto">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Mar
17, 2025, 18:58 Dirk Koopman <<a href="mailto:djk@tobit.co.uk" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">djk@tobit.co.uk</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Which
is the place that I am coming from. Maybe, in
this case, on somewhat specious grounds but is
precisely in the light of the recent uptick in
<br>
attacks on the network that caused me to do
this. <br>
<br>
Please bear in mind that the network was
recently used to promote and facilitate
someone’s commercial activity by sending
genuine (looking) spots by irregular means.
But ignoring the whys and wherefores of the
circumstances: consider the nature of the
generation. The majority of those spots were
automatically generated by design. Just like
these spots AND they too were then modified by
some people to get around the filters - just
like the spots causing the recent flooding. <br>
<br>
They were designed to affirm rather than
inform the user. The system generated them
rather than the user. As sysops and I
struggled to contain the flood, and the
resulting vendetta that ensued, caused even
more problems and has led me to conclude that
any automated spots are to be discouraged or
removed.<br>
<br>
Some years ago I had a similar spat with an
author about automated FTx spots. Which went
nowhere. The volume may not be the same but
these spots annoy many, many users when they
appear in large runs as they did (for a time)
this afternoon. Hence this little experiment.
<br>
<br>
Users are not literate enough to (force their
user programs to) create filters for
themselves*. Either I have to provide a
mechanism or sysops have to each create a
local command / filter to do it for them. <br>
<br>
Anyway I shall be merging the test branch
tomorrow (with this feature switched off) and
I’ll do something about a user version as well
(maybe disable/ftx) with a sysops function to
allow or disable Ftx spots for users as well.
Maybe that will mean that the nodes running
very old software offering this as a selling
point might upgrade. Sigh. <br>
<br>
73 Dirk G1TLH<br>
<br>
* In the last couple of days I have had a
request from a user to fix his filters for
Hamclock.<br>
<br>
> On 17 Mar 2025, at 19:19, Christopher
Schlegel <<a href="mailto:sutehk.cs@gmail.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">sutehk.cs@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
> <br>
> Flooding, providing false info, or other
abuses to the cluster is our domain as it
directly relates to the above sysop
responsibilities. <br>
</blockquote>
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