[Dxspider-support] Forgeries

Thu Mar 13 14:03:38 GMT 2025

The hop count is not arbitrary. Each time the frame is repeated, the
decrement of the hop count is necessary to control the life span of the
frame. In a flood network such as the cluster, I repeat everything I
receive (unless the deduping algorithm kills it). Without the decremented
hop count, it is possible for the frame to keep looping around the network
with nothing to kill it. The frame would just keep being broadcast amongst
nodes causing excessive build up of traffic. When the hop count reaches
zero, the frame dies and is not rebroadcast. It is essentially a count down
timer based on the number of retransmissions.

I have taken notice, in a few minutes of research last night, the CC, AR,
and older Spider clusters seem to start at H99. Newer releases of DXSpider
start at H30 as someone else mentioned.

I will show the data if needed.

Chris, WI3W

On Wed, Mar 12, 2025, 15:12 Rudy Bakalov via Dxspider-support <
dxspider-support at tobit.co.uk> wrote:

> This is helpful. I still don't understand why H is reported if it is
> arbitrary. What does it affect? What is it used for? What breaks if it is
> missing?
>
> So let's assume that extra data is not a problem as your list of nodes for
> each hope will be just 5. Can you explain the actual algorithm that you
> will apply to determine if the spot is good or bad? I don't understand how
> that data will be used in practice. Just use a plain English or Italian
> pseudo code to explain your idea:
>
>    1. For each spot, I will create a list of all nodes that have routed
>    the spot.
>    2. Then I will examine each node and do this and that
>    3. If this happens, I will do A, if that happens I will do B.
>    4. Spots will be dropped based on such and such criteria.
>    5. I am making such and such assumptions
>
> Rudy N2WQ
>
> On Wednesday, March 12, 2025 at 02:55:58 PM EDT, IZ2LSC <
> iz2lsc.andrea at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> For PC61 originated by dxspider the default hop count is 30.
> I cannot comment for spots originated by others.
> I can see on my node PC61 originated by VE7CC coming in with H95
>
> Anyway, Kin EA3CV did an excellent paper analyzing the network and he
> found that each node can reach any other node in 2-5 hops on most of the
> cases.
> So I do not expect to see long path recorded as you depicted (as far as
> there are no loops, but this is a good way to discover loops indeed).
>
> 73s
>
> Andrea
>
>
> -->
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 12, 2025 at 6:44 PM Rudy Bakalov <r_bakalov at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> 350 bytes per hop per message, not 350 bytes per message. It's give or
> take another 25 MB for 80,000 messages.
>
> If H is not what PC61 says it is, what is it? If it is decremented, what
> is the starting value to get to 98? And what is the purpose of H if
> unreliable, why send it at all?
>
> Rudy N2WQ
>
> On Wednesday, March 12, 2025 at 01:34:47 PM EDT, Kin <ea3cv at cronux.net>
> wrote:
>
>
> Average spot value (60/130) 95 bytes. But I will use the worst case, 150
> bytes.
>
>
>
> Received frame size:
>
> 14(Ethernet header)+20(IP header)+20(TCP header)+150(Payload)+4(CRC) =
> 208 bytes.
>
>
>
> 80000 messages/min. approx. 1334 messages/s
>
> 1334 messages/s * 208 bytes * 8 bits = 2219776 bytes/s
>
>
>
> Necessary line speed = 2.22 Mbps
>
>
>
> With the assumed increase of 350 bytes per message:
>
>
>
> 14(Ethernet header)+20(IP header)+20(TCP header)+500(Payload)+4(CRC) =
> 558 bytes.
>
>
>
> 80000 messages/min approx. 1334 messages/s
>
> 1334 messages/s * 558 bytes * 8 bits = 5954976 bytes/s
>
>
>
> Necessary line speed = 5.96 Mbps
>
>
>
> But if instead of having 35 neighbouring nodes, we had 10:
>
>
>
> (5954976 bytes/s * 10) / 35  = 1.70 Mbps
>
>
>
> Conclusion, pecata minuta for the connection to the provider and a waste
> of CPU/Memory with so many links.
>
>
>
> Ah, we take the value of about 5 hops as valid when we are interested, now
> we should not use 50.
>
>
>
> Kin EA3CV
>
>
>
> PS
>
>
>
> 20 CCC + 15 DXS
>
>
>
>
>
> *De:* Dxspider-support <dxspider-support-bounces at tobit.co.uk> *En nombre
> de *Rudy Bakalov via Dxspider-support
> *Enviado el:* miércoles, 12 de marzo de 2025 16:57
> *Para:* iz2lsc.andrea at gmail.com; The DXSpider Support list <
> dxspider-support at dxcluster.org>
> *CC:* Rudy Bakalov <r_bakalov at yahoo.com>
> *Asunto:* Re: [Dxspider-support] Forgeries
>
>
>
> Let’s think this thru:
>
>
>
> 1/Logs show spots with H as high as 98! Recording the node of each hop
> will increase PC61 payload on average 6 characters per hop. Let’s say
> average H is 50, that would be 300 characters plus the delimiters or about
> 350 characters.
>
> 2/My cluster received over 80K spots per minute. Imagine the traffic
> created by 80K messages with additional 350 characters per PC61 message.
>
>
>
> Can you describe the full algorithm you are proposing? How are you going
> to use the additional data to make a decision to accept or drop a spot?
>
>
>
> When comparing PC61 to BGP remember that BGP is designed to support
> two-way data flows. PC61 is strictly one-way and doesn’t need routing
> overhead.
>
>
>
> Rudy N2WQ
>
>
>
> Sent using a tiny keyboard.  Please excuse brevity, typos, or
> inappropriate autocorrect.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mar 12, 2025, at 11:19 AM, IZ2LSC via Dxspider-support <
> dxspider-support at tobit.co.uk> wrote:
>
> 
>
> Mike, this is why I'm saying that we need to record the whole path, not
> only the last hop.
>
> Every node has to append it's ID.
>
> Andrea
>
>
>
> -->
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 12, 2025 at 2:05 PM Mike McCarthy, W1NR via Dxspider-support <
> dxspider-support at tobit.co.uk> wrote:
>
> The current release does tag spots from the incoming node partner with a
> "via" tag. You would need to analyze all the logs in between, using the
> "via" tag to trace it back to the source.
>
> On 3/12/2025 8:06 AM, IZ2LSC via Dxspider-support wrote:
> > We are all senior developer with AI!
> > At least you agreed that what you proposed for partner identity is not a
> > solution against the flooding.
> > Perhaps do you also agree about the need to record the spot path?
> >
> > 73
> >
> > Andrea
>
> --
> 73 de Mike, W1NR
>
> THAT was the equation. EXISTENCE!... SURVIVAL... must cancel out...
> programming!
>
> - Ruk -
>
>
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